Who Owns Your PS3? KaKaRoTo Talks Modifing The PS3′s Firmware, Piracy and DRM
The Electronic Frontier Foundation believe that technology should be open, and that when you buy a console, you should be able to do what you want with it. Sony and Microsoft, on the other hand, believe that their systems should be controlled, and that if you sign up to their terms of service, you should abide by them. This differing belief has caused there to be a divide amongst gamers – some happy to live in a closed system, with the security and advantages that the system brings, and others who try and open up the console to try and tinker with what’s inside – no matter the consequences. Having developed the first “Modified Firmware” for the PlayStation 3, Youness Alaoui, aka KaKaRoTo, is a believer in open, so, to understand his motives, we talked to him about piracy, black hat hackers, who really owns your PS3, and fridges.
So, to start, could you introduce yourself?
I’m Youness Alaoui, I’m a software engineer, of Moroccan origin, currently living in Canada, my passion is programming and I’ve been doing open source development for over 10 years now.
You caught the attention of the gaming world when you were the first person to make CFW for the PS3.
Apparently, yes. Although I prefer to call it MFW (Modified Firmware) rather than CFW (Custom Firmware) since it was just a modification to the firmware rather than an entirely custom one.
Makes sense. Since then, a lot has happened, and we’d love to get your views on some of the events. What was your take on Anonymous’ attack on the PSN and Sony?
I’m still a bit torn about that subject. I initially disagreed with it, but someone explained to me how DDoS is like pacifists sitting in front of a building, blocking people from entering it as a way of protest, and that makes sense. I’m not sure thought that I agree with the whole thing though.
I believe they made the right choice by deciding to stop their attacks when they noticed that the PSN was being affected and that it was causing issues to customers.
And I guess you’re against groups like LulzSec?
yeah, I don’t really understand the whole idea behind the “lulz” and I think they should use their skills to do more constructive work than what they have been doing lately.
And do you think Sony responded adequately to Anonymous’ attacks, and the PSN hack?
I don’t think they did. The Anonymous attacks were done to protest the abusive lawsuits that Sony have been doing, but they are continuing and Alexander Egorenkov is still being sued into bankruptcy as we speak, and they are still sending Cease & Desist letters and making threats to anyone who dares participate in the hacking scene.
As for the PSN hack, I think they took too long to tell people about it, and they tried to downplay what happened…
Their welcome back package was a nice gesture, but they try to point out as much as possible that it’s about the “PSN downtime” rather than about the “loss of millions of user’s information”.
Their use of words is also quite irritating, throwing “cyber-terrorism” and making the emphasis of how they are a victim of a criminal act, rather than accepting that the PSN hack happened as a result of their incompetence in securing their own network.
A month or two before the PSN hack, we tried contacting Sony in many ways telling them that they are using outdated and vulnerable software and they should secure their network better, but they ignored us, and that’s the result, and they should take responsibility for ignoring those warnings.
They have – or are in the process of – setting up a new security division. Is it easier for you to contact Sony now?
I don’t know about that. I don’t think this “new security division” is nothing more than propaganda and buzz words to make people feel safer. They should have had that from the start, and they probably had, but they were incompetent. They may have fired a few people and hired new ones, but if their management is still as arrogant as it was before, I don’t think that’s going to change anything.
So do you think it’s likely that they will be hacked again?
I believe that the best for them to be more secure is to be more humble and less aggressive against their customers. I don’t know if they will be hacked again, probably, maybe not in the same scale as what recently happened though.
You want Sony to provide us with a legitimate way to create and play homebrew applications for the PS3 right?
Yes, I do. That’s why I launched the Humble Homebrew initiative where I’m providing a few homebrew games for free for jailbroken PS3 users to enjoy (as well as other platforms).
Sony only understands when you talk about money, and when you look at Microsoft, Apple and Google, they are all making a lot of money with no investment, simply by allowing hobbyist developers to release their hard work for everyone to enjoy.
But it’s really about freedom, we should have the freedom to use our devices any way we want (within the boundaries of the law and without infringing on other user’s freedom), and having a legitimate path to homebrew is getting one step closer to that freedom. The PS3 wasn’t hacked for 4 years because we had Linux support which allowed countless people to experiment with the Cell processor, but as soon as they illegally removed Linux support from our PS3s, they have unleashed the developer’s thirst in getting their freedom back.
But don’t you worry that by hacking the PS3 and creating an underground scene you have made it so that Sony will never open up the platform? They don’t want to seem like they are backing down to hackers after-all.
That’s why I say they are arrogant. They shouldn’t open it up because we’re asking them or because we hacked the console, they should do it because they have wrongfully harmed all their customers by illegally removing an advertised feature (Linux). Also because they can generate more revenues by opening up the console with zero investment on their part. It is the logical thing to do, and most importantly, it is the right thing to do.
But if they give in to one demand, surely they open themselves up to far more requests from people in the hacking scene? Much like Reagan’s: “We don’t negotiate with terrorists” stance.
But we are not terrorists 
And I don’t believe they’d open themselves up to any requests because they’d give in to that demand. They wouldn’t actually give in to a demand, they would actually rectify what they did wrong. They screwed up their security and they gave free games to their users as part of the welcome back package. That doesn’t mean that people will try to hack PSN again just to get free games and people aren’t thinking that we got those free games as a negotiation with the hackers. They did something wrong (which was already ruled illegal by the courts in a few countries), and they should rectify it. The only reason they are not doing it is because they are too arrogant.
So are you only involved in the homebrew scene because they removed Linux?
Originally I got involved because I was curious and it was challenging, entertaining and a great source of knowledge. I later stayed involved because I want to protest the best I can against Sony’s actions. Because they removed Linux, and because of the threats and abusive lawsuits that they’ve done. The more I’ve been reading the court documents in the Geohot vs. SCEA case, and the more infuriated I became. Sony have been manipulating, lying to the court, falsifying proof, and just simply insulting. They have done their best to threaten and scare everyone and I felt oppressed. They tried to remove my legal right by oppressing me with invalid threats, and I don’t respond well to threats. So I felt compelled to keep the fight going and to let them know that they cannot silence the world, they cannot break the law and violate freedom of speech simply by throwing some dollar bills in the air.
If Linux never existed on the PS3, do you think people would have still pushed for homebrew?
I believe so, and I believe that the PS3 would have been hacked in a matter of months if they never included Linux initially. It is human nature for people to seek freedom. If you buy a house and there’s a locked room in the house and the previous owner refused to give you the key, would you live all your life in that house without ever using that room? No, I believe you would break the door or the wall, but you would try all you can to get full access to your property.
But if he sold the house to me saying “do not open that door, I don’t want it opened, so I’ll sell the place for less”
First of all, he would have said that only after you paid the house, secondly, it is still your property, you still own the room, and even if you agreed to it at first, what alternative do you have if after 10 years, you’re out of space in your home and you don’t want to agree to that any more?
And there’s also of course the issue of curiosity. How long can you resist? 
I believe I have explained this issue quite well in my latest blog post where I compare it to buying a fridge but on page 258 of the manual of the fridge, they tell you not to put any bread or pastries in the fridge.
And the only reason is because LG/Frigidaire (or whoever made the fridge) didn’t make a deal with the bakeries to allow their products to go into the fridge. LG wants to force bakeries to pay their half their revenues so they will authorize their products in the fridge, and in the end, you, the consumer, you are the one paying more for your bread just so you can put it in the fridge.
And you are also paying more for the fridge, because it has to have this microchip that detects whether or not there’s bread in it so it can turn itself off automatically if it detects “unauthorized content”. It reminds me of the Mafia, where local shops have to pay the Godfather for “protection”, this is absolutely absurd. They should sell you the hardware, and once you own it, you do what you want to do with it (as long as it’s legal)
To be fair, it’d kind of be your fault for buying the fridge – Sony don’t deny the PS3 is a closed system, and there are open alternatives. So, continuing the analogy, if you weren’t a fan of the closed fridge system, you could get a different one.
Not really, because, first of all, there aren’t really any open system, also, that fridge just happens to have this water dispenser integrated and it’s the only model that has it, and also, your local supermarket won’t let you buy any of their products if you don’t own that specific fridge
And I’m not saying that I’d be shocked in knowing I can’t put bread in it, I would know beforehand, and maybe I accepted that, and I got used to looking for my fridge’s logo in local stores before entering, and I’m used to checking ‘compatibility lists’ whenever I buy a tomato, but, that doesn’t mean I can’t find it to be absolutely absurd.
I accept and I understand the PS3′s license agreement, and it is for the software that runs on it, the GameOS firmware. However, a license that I accept isn’t necessary “until death do us part”, and if I suddenly decide that I don’t like it, and I don’t want it, there is no way for me to remove their firmware from my console and use my own custom firmware (or Linux).
What should I do with the hardware that I own if I don’t want to use the software that’s on it?
Quoting from that same post:
A closed source (or “proprietary”) program is like going to a restaurant where they serve this dish that you like, but when you ask the waiter/waitress what’s in it, they refuse to tell you the recipe for it. And open source is when you go to your friend’s house, you eat something that you like, and when you ask what’s in it, your friend tells you “oh, let me give you the recipe.
Now imagine a world where no one could ever get a recipe for anything, you want to cook something, you have to relearn from scratch, experiment yourself with everything and see if the result is satisfactory, without having any references…
…Thankfully, this isn’t the world we live in, and in the same way as you might enjoy cooking and exchanging recipes with your friends and family, we, programmers, enjoy sharing source code with each other, making our ‘recipes’ publicly available to everyone.
But the fact is that restaurants do protect their cooking styles and recipes so that they stay in business. That way we can be guaranteed a great meal when we go to a restaurant. With friends – you may or may not get a great meal, but you have more choice and creativity.
So couldn’t it be argued that the PS3 is a restaurant – stuff is secret, but everything is produced by professionals who get paid to ensure that the product is top notch? Meanwhile, the PC can be used for sharing ideas and making better recipes.
Well, first of all, that quote was to explain in simple terms the difference between closed and open source software. And you are right, restaurants do protect their cooking styles and recipes, but they will not sue you into oblivion if you taste their meal then start thinking “I think they added some cinnamon to it”.
But they’d kick you out if you went in there and started eating your homecooked meal.
Also, when you compared the PS3 to a restaurant, the analogy is a bit flawed in that you don’t own the restaurant, you just go to it and pay for a meal. While with the PS3, you actually own the hardware.
So it would (maybe) be a bit more like saying you go to a restaurant (Sony) and you buy a cheese burger (the PS3 hardware that you now own), and the restaurant owner tries to put you in jail because you added ketchup to your burger (you modified the ‘vision of the chef’, you modified their secret recipe). In my blog post, I do these comparison, where I explain that hacking is basically like adding some salt to your meal or ketchup to your burger, and that reverse engineering is the same as eating a meal and wondering if it contains garlic or not
But, in working out that garlic’s in the meal, you inadvertently let everyone know what’s in the meal, and no one buys the meal any more.
Do you know how to make a hamburger? the answer is probably yes… do you still buy hamburgers in restaurants and fast food chains? The answer is probably yes. The thing is that I’m not seeing Burger King yelling everywhere that they are losing millions because people learned how to put beef on top of a slice of bread. You pay for the service of having someone do it for you and you pay for the ingredients used to do it
But if the burger was the same – happy meal toy and all – maybe I would eat that burger. While you don’t promote piracy, it is a consequence of homebrew.
To compare it to the iPhone, it is easy to jailbreak it, people are jailbreaking it, and you can pirate apps on the iPhone from what I heard, but the iphone market is very profitable. As Wolfire Game Studios explained in their blog post, piracy is just an excuse for people who write bad games. In reality, if 90% of your users have pirated your software, then you probably lost less than 1% in sales.
That’s because most people who pirate would never have bought the software anyway, so it’s very wrong to believe that every download equates a lost sale. That’s just what project managers tell their boss to justify why their software doesn’t sell.
I don’t promote piracy, and I don’t want people to pirate games/software/etc. But I don’t believe that it’s as hurtful as they make it out to be. Also, piracy is definitely not a consequence of homebrew. The Xbox 360 has a homebrew program and that has nothing to do with piracy
(Xbox live indie games). What you could argue is actually the jailbreak that could cause piracy, in that case, yes I agree, but it’s the same thing as saying that a knife or cars can kill people, and many people are suffering everyday from the loss of someone dear to them because they were stabbed or died in a car accident.. but I haven’t seen knives and cars being outlawed yet.
MFW is needed to play pirated games though.
Yes, and MFW is also needed to play homebrew (because Sony doesn’t give us an official way to do that). And also, for your information, while some people are pirating games, I know a lot of people who are using MFW to play only their legally owned backups.
It is more convenient for many, and for those who got their discs scratched or broken, or who have a broken disc player, it is the only alternative, other than being forced to pay twice for the same thing (which is I think is generating more profit to these companies than what they lose in pirated copies).
Reading your blog post, you talk about ‘greedy corporations’. Greed is a result of capitalism – the most profitable companies survive, not the kindest – would you say you disagree with capitalism?
That’s a tricky question
I don’t disagree necessarily with capitalism, but I don’t agree with what people/companies do in the name of capitalism. I don’t agree that capitalism means someone will have so much money that he doesn’t know what to do with it (and he tried everything) while someone else doesn’t even know how he’ll be able to eat today. That may or may not be capitalism itself, but it is a result of capitalism.
The most profitable companies survive, but when they are the meanest, they will lose customer trust and they will fall… while the kindest will have the loyalty of their users and they will not disappear. You need a good balance.
If you read my post, I said that I’m not against DRM, I’m not against a company protecting its interests, and I’m not against a closed system (I am for freedom, and freedom also means that you are free to decide if you want to release your work as a closed system).
But what I also say is that “One’s freedom stops where someone else’s freedom starts”, and I don’t agree when your DRM or your protection infringes on my basic rights and on my freedom. If you look at the humble indie bundle, it was a huge success, they’ve made millions, and there was no DRM, and there was no lawsuit or effort against those who pirated it.
You only needed to pay 1 cent to get the games, but most people were paying on average 15$ I believe. That was the kindest, and they didn’t get crushed.
But it could be said the humble indie bundles worked because of its uniqueness – do you think that if people could choose what to pay on PSN it would be just as successful?
No, of course not. But I am saying that being kind to your users doesn’t mean you get crushed, there will always be a balance. When Sony released the PS3 with Linux support, it didn’t get hacked. When they removed Linux support, it did. The world balances itself out.
I can’t speak for anyone, but in my case, I had a choice between the PS3 and the Xbox 360. I knew no one with a PS3 and quite a few people with an Xbox, which was also 100$ cheaper if I remember correctly.
I bought the PS3, and I convinced maybe 10 friends to buy one, for these reasons :
- It had Linux support. While I never really used it on the PS3, I wanted to embrace and encourage this company who thought of Linux
- It had a standard Hard drive, and I’m all for standards
- It has a standard USB and I’m all for standards
- You could use a normal keyboard/mouse/webcam with it
Those are the reasons I bought it, and those were my arguments for converting everyone I knew. They removed Linux, and that was a huge slap in the face, and they already made a firmware update that blocked all USB devices that aren’t licensed by Sony. And there have been two (accidental, then later fixed) firmware updates that refused to boot if they didn’t have the original hard drive it was sold with.
The result of all this? I’ve changed my stance and now I’m convincing people to never buy any Sony product, and believe me, a boycott will hurt them 10 times more than any piracy ever could.
Well the reason they claim to have removed Linux was because GeoHot was looking into jailbreaking the PS3- he may or may not have been successful, but it’s not entirely true that the hack was only because of the removal.
That isn’t true, I know for a fact that they removed it because IBM forced them. It was all about money and nothing else. What Geohot tried to do is enable Linux on the Slim which didn’t have it, so technically, they started it, the initial geohot hack was as a response of Sony removing Linux from their PS3 Slim. It wasn’t really much actually, since first of all, the Slims never had Linux support so it wasn’t an issue of them breaking any promise, and secondly, what he did didn’t have any kind of repercussion on GameOS (the XMB firmware). The proof being that the first hack was through an exploit in their USB stack, and had nothing to do with Linux.
Also, whether they removed Linux in 3.21 or not, what difference would it have made? The only thing his hack allowed was to read and write to the memory of the PS3, and he dumped the hypervisor code. Even if they removed Linux, the hypervisor code was already dumped, so it would have made no difference, it was too late.
Sony did, however, manage to “re-secure” the PS3 – while the PSN’s security was lacking, and I think you said the PS3′s initial security looked like it was “made by five year olds”. Was the re-securing an impressive feat of programming?
Yes, I was surprised by how they re-secured it. It’s still not really secure, but they were able to block the immediate jailbreak solution.
They did the only possible solution to block the spread of these MFW. The first step was to add a new, additional layer of security in the firmware update files that would get checked by the newer firmwares, this means that we can’t install a MFW on 3.56 (and up) because they check these new files for authenticity, but we could create a 3.66 MFW that could be installed on lower firmwares (but no one did because it’s not interesting enough I suppose).
Then the second step, once they made sure that it worked and that most people were away from the vulnerable firmware versions, they made a new firmware where they decided to hide all their important files in the single file that was left protected.
The PS3′s core system consists of multiple files with a chain of trust, A decodes B, B decodes C, C decodes D, etc… and we have the keys to all these layers, so when a new firmware comes out, we can just decrypt A and get the decryption keys for B, then get the decryption keys for C, etc…
However there was another independent file (lv0) that isn’t part of this chain, for which we didn’t have the keys, so they hid this A file inside of lv0, so we can’t access it and we can’t decode the whole chain. This single secure point was all they needed to resecure everything, and that’s exactly what they did. However, this lv0 file is just as vulnerable as the rest of the system was, so it’s just a matter of finding the keys for it (some developers are very close to doing that), then we’ll be able to get access to A and subsequently decode the whole thing again. And that would be the highest level of trust you can get, then you can use a NAND/NOR writer (let’s call it a ‘modchip’) that could just replace your current firmware with a modified one (from the latest version of course), thus bypassing the new security checks they’ve made to prevent installing newer modified firmware.
So once that’s been done, there’s no chance of re-re-securing the PS3?
No, I don’t think so, that’s what had been discussed by the fail0verflow team during their presentation by in December 2010. And that is the exact reason why they have just filed the FCC for their newer PS3 model. Other than lv0, since the 3.60 update, they added a lv0.2 file which contains a ‘digital signature’ of the lv0 file that the PS3 must check to ensure that lv0 wasn’t modified.
This new CECH300X PS3 model will be the first one to actually do that verification, that is their only solution for securing the PS3, but all older models are vulnerable forever.
They messed up in such proportions that it’s impossible to go back now without a newer hardware revision. That’s why the fail0verflow team said that it was an “epic fail”.
What do you think of the fact that Sony provides DRM measures?
I think they are free to do so, it is their right, and I don’t mind a non-abusive DRM, but like I said before, “One’s freedom stops where someone else’s freedom starts”, and a perfect example of that is Sony BGM’s rootkit scandal where in order to protect themselves, they decided to infringe on everyone’s freedom, security and privacy.
And worst is when they were forced to remove it, the tool that they released to remove the rootkit, silently installed a different one, without even removing the initial rootkit.
I have an issue with that kind of DRM that Sony might produce. Many people prefer pirating a game on PC rather than being forced into a ridiculous DRM scheme. They are hurting themselves more than they think.. like I said, it’s all about balance. And look at the music industry now.. I’m not sure, correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Apple used to DRM everything and people got fed up with that, then the whole “DRM-Free music” stuff started and that’s when iTunes really took off.. treat your customers well and you will more than survive, you will prosper.
So what are you doing at the moment in the PS3 homebrew scene?
I’m not really into homebrew, I prefer writing the low level libraries rather than something with a user interface. But I wanted to kick-start the homebrew initiative, so I had a bit of fun writing the SGT Puzzles Collection and porting Free Heroes 2, then I decided to stop. But since then, Scogger HD was released and I know at least 2 other homebrew games that are being developed now and which will be added the Humble Homebrew Collection as soon as they are ready.
Since then, I’ve had a lot of work at my job, so I decided to relax and took some time off from the PS3 development, but I should soon get back to it.
My plan for now would be to get a jailbreak solution for 3.66 firmwares and up. One that wouldn’t require any hardware modifications and one that wouldn’t even require any modification of the original firmware. But it will take a lot of time to finish, and I can’t guarantee I’ll ever have the motivation to finish it.
Hopefully, by finding the solution to jailbreak and access homebrew on an unmodified firmware, this will also prevent the possibility of piracy.
That would be ideal, piracy is the biggest problem with MFW – but it would still mean that games would be played on the PS3 that didn’t give Sony a cut. The PS3′s R&D and reduced price were a result of hoping to make money off of that cut. Do you think that cutting out the middleman that is Sony, they may not invest so heavily in the PS4, or sell it for a loss?
I don’t think they will invest so much and I don’t think they will sell it at a loss, I believe they learned their lesson with the PS3, it is not a good business model. But that has nothing to do with cutting out the middleman. Also, most (if not all) homebrew games are free, so they’re not losing money because a few thousand people are playing a game that was distributed freely by its authors. On the contrary, they’d be saving bandwidth since they’re not the ones offering these free games
If I was new to gaming, and interested in the homebrew scene, would you tell me to buy a PS3 and jailbreak it (assuming that it can be done), or simply use a computer?
I believe that this question is equivalent to “I’m interested in playing games, do you suggest a PS3 or a computer?”. It depends on what you want. If you want to be on your couch with a controller in your hand, and switch easily to listening to music, streaming movies, etc… then the PS3 is for you…
If you prefer gaming while you’re sitting in a chair in front of a (usually, relatively) smaller screen with a mouse and keyboard, then I’d say the PC is for you.
A homebrew game is the same as a professionally made game, the quality may (or may not) differ, the only difference is that it was developed by someone ‘at home’ rather than by someone ‘in his office’.
Like I said in another interview, if you run an application on your iPhone and the application or game launches without showing you a splash screen with a company logo/name, then that is a homebrew application that you are running. Not all applications on the iPhone/Android that are good necessarily have this company logo at startup.
But currently, the PS3 homebrew scene is very young (and unfortunately a bit striving since Sony managed to scare off pretty much every potential developer) and we are building our own SDK from scratch, so no one has to rely on a leaked and copyrighted SDK and it takes time for the community to grow.
What would Sony have to do to make you buy the PS Vita?
They need to stop their current lawsuit against Alexander Egorenkov (who only brought back Linux to the PS3 and write Linux drivers, he hasn’t even looked at GameOS), they need to give a proper and sincere apology on their blog about their removal of OtherOS support, and give us a way for legitimately running homebrew applications on the PS3, whether it is by bringing back OtherOS support, or by creating something similar to the Xbox Live Indie Games.
45 Responses to “Who Owns Your PS3? KaKaRoTo Talks Modifing The PS3′s Firmware, Piracy and DRM”
Why are so many people going on about the removal of Linux as if Sony needs to be punished for it? THEY DID! There was a lawsuit against them for it, they lost and they had to pay out half the price of the PS3s bought to the owners (Only people who bought the PS3 between the removal of Linux).
So why are people talking like this didn’t happen? Sony dosen’t need to be punished for the removal of Linux when they already did.
How do you figure? There was a small portion of people that own a PS3 who received the payment. For the majority of us that bought a PS3 not only because of games, and bluray but also OtherOS we didn’t get a payment. I know I sure didn’t.
That lawsuit effected maybe 5,000 people in the world. Compared to a 7 million install base, that doesn’t even begin to solve the issue.
I know I bought my PS3 because of OtherOS as well as the other features, but I didn’t get paid. Same can be said for numerous people who are in the scene right now. So why aren’t we entitled to getting paid back, or justice?
What Sony need to do is give out an optional firmware update to reintroduce linux officially. That is what they need to do. As it will allow everyone in the world who lost it, access to it again. Not just people who have the money to fight a court case, or travel to fight a court case.
I’m sorry but I’m a full time college student I don’t have the time, or energy to seek out the area where everyone decides to pool in for another class action lawsuit. When what Sony needs to do is provide an optional update.
With an optional update it’s not like they would be hurting their console by reintroducing exploits or anything. The damage has already been done. So they couldn’t use that as an excuse. Whoever wants to use linux for exploits already has a perfectly viable avenue for that in the form of the underground version.
Heck even the official OtherOS was a half baked version in all honesty. It gave us access to only one or two SPU’s (or may it was the single PPU) and the ram. It didn’t give us 3D acceleration with the RSX chip. We could use the RSX as swap, but that was about it.
So now they haven’t been punished and no the rights have not be wronged. For those miniscule minority who got the pay you, ya they are satisfied. But where does that leave the vast majority of people that lost a feature that persuaded them to buy the machine? Nowhere.
First of all, I don’t know of anyone who got refunded anything for that, I think I heard about one or two people who got refunded by Best Buy or whatever, not by Sony. Sony are still fighting in court (in the US) to justify that what they did is fine.
And like I said in the interview, I didn’t use Linux, but the removal of it was still a huge slap in the face, it’s a matter of principle and it sets a precedent never seen before.
Sony doesn’t need to be punished for the removal of OtherOS, but we don’t need to be punished either. They never made any kind of excuse for their action.
I feel the need to call bullshit on this.
Know why?
I bought my CECHA01 during the time frame stated the class action lawsuit would affect.
I have owned my PS3 during the entire time and has never left my possession.
I have the receipts to prove when and where it was bought.
I have never seen a dime of this class action lawsuit you speak of.
Shame I can’t reply to all three of you at ounce really. Sony can’t give you the money if they don’t know you exist, it’s not on a basis of just sit there and wait for them to give you the money. If you wanted the money you had to go and prove you had bought a PS3 between the time frame to recieve the money.
Persernally I didn’t want to claim any money from Sony so I didn’t. You can’t complain if you never made the effort then you have no right to complain, Sony gave you the chance to claim back money from your PS3 so they should be off the hook as they’ve done excactly what they were told to do as a result of taking Linux away.
Sony has been to court and has been punished for this so there’s really no need to bring it up again.
Oh and I don’t have the money to contribute to a court case either. Not by a long shot.
Sorry for the triple post. What I mean about the underground version of linux, is that it gives full access to the hardware. So if people want to experiment with exploits and full on hardware stuff, that version is for them. It’s not gonna go anywhere. So Sony aren’t gonna lose anything by including an optional update. they could easily release a simple tool that patches the current firmware that is out with the files need for OtherOS. If the scene can do it, they can do it. They could idiot proof it without any problems.
basically it asks you for official firmware, you stick it in, than it patches that firmware with the required code to spit out the OtherOS enabled firmware. That way they don’t have to continually update the OFW every single release. Or they could even do that, without adding any extra costs. if they can do security updates, they can reintroduce an advertised feature.
This guy is an idiot. When you buy a PS3, you can mod it all you want. Just don’t expect Sony to allow you to use their services when they don’t know all the shit you’ve done to your system that may make their system less secure.
“…and when you look at Microsoft, Apple and Google, they are all making a lot of money with no investment, simply by allowing hobbyist developers to release their hard work for everyone to enjoy.”
Really? Try to take a jailbroken iPhone to Apple to get it repaired if something goes wrong. Oh wait, you can’t because it voids the warranty. And try to find an app that uses Flash. Oh wait, you can’t because Apple won’t allow it because it’s another development platform that they wouldn’t make money off of.
If you want to mod, go buy a PC. Don’t fuck other people over because you’re too stupid to understand what it means to agree to Sony’s ToS.
You are an idiot, because you didn’t care to read anything that I said. I’ve always said that PSN is a service from Sony, nobody but Sony owns it, and they set the rules and jailbroken PS3s should not go on PSN. But this whole intereview has nothing to do with PSN, it’s about who owns the hardware that you have in your living room, and it’s not because you’re sad that you didn’t get to play your FPS for a little while that you have to insult and disagree with anyone who doesn’t bow down to you.
Leave your PSN arguments for a Anonymous/LulzSec related article, and stay on topic for this one.
The whole reason Anonymous justified attacking the PSN was because Sony took out OtherOS and “violated their rights.” So this has everything to do with that issue. It’s within Sony’s rights to alter their software. You own the hardware, not the software. If Sony decided to take out PS1 backward compatibility, they could do it. And the guy in the article defends the assholes who crippled the PSN. And it wasn’t just a matter of me “being unable to play my FPS.” The fact of the matter is I rarely play online. The bigger issue was that they exposed my and millions of other’s personal information. Don’t tell me this has nothing to do with the PSN attack. The very thing this guy is complaining about is the reason given to justify the attack. They have everything to do with one another. And again, you and the people like you are too stupid to understand a ToS agreement. If you don’t like Sony’s policies, go buy an X-Box. Because according to this fool, they pretty much let you do whatever you want with their system anyway.
@Andrew, you are an absolute idiot.. You can’t even understand what being off-topic means.
And btw, you didn’t even read enough of the article to know the name of “this fool”…
Andrew this article has nothing to do with PSN. The hackers that have hacked the PS3 don’t even give a shit about PSN. Anon/lulzsec have absolutely no relationship/ties/connections with the people in the PS3 scene. They just saw something that was wrong and decided to do something about it.
So again if you wanna bitch and moan about PSN, go talk to ANON or lulzsec. You could start by attacking lulzsec on twitter.
KaKaRotoKs and the rest of the PS3 scene developers are only interested in homebrew, and linux. Which means they don’t touch PSN. If you would have read the article in it’s entirety you would have known that. Likewise you would know that you were attacking the hacker was was interviewed. Which means you probably used the search function to find PSN and just read that part. Otherwise you would have read everything and realized just how wrong you are.
If your gonna attack someone, at least do some fucking reading before hand. Get your facts straight and don’t go off on people that don’t have anything to do with the PSN attack. It’s like your blaming a homeless man for raping the economy instead if attacking the government, bankers, and other organizations that have direct involvement with the economy. meaning your a fool.
Plus KaKarotoks didn’t even justify the PSN attack. So again READ BEFORE YOU SPEAK!
Zzzz. Sorry. Can we move on? I know this is important for the hackers and crackers but not really to the largest gaming audience. No disrespect; just facts.
It is important to the larger gaming audience when these jerk offs attack the PSN and bring it down for months at a time.
@infekt no offense taken, you are right, most people don’t care. It doesn’t mean noone should talk about it. I don’t care about FPS games, I’m not commenting in every article about FPS on PSLS telling them not to post it.
Also, some people are interested in knowing about this stuff, and some may learn things they didn’t know before.
@Andrew: you are absolutely an idiot. Go learn how to read before trying to write. When you have no fucking idea what you are talking about, then just shut your hole.
p.s.: Read this if you want to understand more about the issue : http://kakaroto.homelinux.net/2011/07/programming-open-source-hacking-and-greedy-corporations/
oh, and comparing/linking this to the PSN hack is like saying I killed JFK because I bought a car.. NO FUCKING RELATION WHATSOEVER!
sounds like a man grasping for arguments (weak as hell), to justify his means and being angry.
why give him space on the site … but then i read this part
“Hopefully, by finding the solution to jailbreak and access homebrew on an unmodified firmware, this will also prevent the possibility of piracy.”
i’am all in for doing mods that dosent open the door for piracy. sadly, i dont see it happen.
coulden a person just submit his homebrew games to sony? putting it on the store for gratis?
what do i know. i am happy with my ps3. i know it cant use linux if i updated it from THAT FM.. i did, cuz linux isent more important than the games.. the reason why i got the ps3..
i did follow KaKaRoTo on twitter at a point.. he used to have a desent point in all this.
but blaiming sony for the attack is not cool. its like saying, if you go on a holiday in egypt, then its your own damn mess if you get kidnapt. hey usa, its your fault that the world trade center whent down – you suld have hired better buliders, so that i would not colapse when a plain hit it… cuz its okay to attack the building when its not safe .. or somthing.
I also updated, I didn’t use Linux anyways, I use my PS3 for gaming and that’s its purpose in my mind, but it doesn’t change the fact that what they did is wrong and I have every right to be angry that they removed it (and no, their ‘you have a choice’ argument is bullshit). However, it’s not because I didn’t use it that others didn’t and we all have to understand that we’re not alone in this world.
As for putting the blame on Sony, no, I never said it’s their fault, what I said is that they screwed up and they need to take responsability for their screw up (not for everything) which they haven’t as far as I know.
I wouldn’t blame the builders for the 9/11 attacks, but the airport security was at fault, the terrorists themselves are to blame maybe at 95% but there is a 5% blame on “how the hell did they steal 3 planes without anyone noticing”. The same for Sony, blame the hacker who intruded their system but also blame their poor security for making it easy for him to attack it.
that was a good interview. you guys were dropping analogies left and right.
tbh, i recently got into the cfw scene when i finally decided to hack my wii. overall, it was a pretty good experience. the ability to play my games off a usb device is amazing. it made me want to do my ps3 next, but unfortunately i have to wait until the scene catches up. not only that, but i want to wait for brick protection software. the wii has bootmii and priiloader. as far as i know, the ps3 doesn’t have anything. so… yeah.
All i hear in his answers is a lot of whining… Sony took out Other OS.. boohoo!
move on.
If anyone bought a ps3 specifically because of linux, then you must be told because obviously you dont realize, youre an idiot. “As a blu ray player”, ok yea I get that, but specifically for linux… No.
No analogy in the world is unique enough or can be applied to Sonys situation. The “you cant put bread in your freezer” was just ridiculous and confusing, and could never be applied in a real world situation.
The “modified cheese burger by putting ketchup on it” was the dumbest thing ever. I guess if Mc’ds starting posting signs saying “Ketchup must not be applied on cheese burgers. Offenders will be fined and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law”, then maybe I would think twice before “modifying” my burger with ketchup. Then again, maybe I just wont eat at Mc’ds at all. If youre so about “freedom”, how bout you exercise youre freedom and EAT SOMEWHERE ELSE..?
How can this guy use so many analogies about food. If I “modify” my food by using an ingredient that wasnt in the original recipe, all im going to do is make it disappear by eating it, digest it, and shit it out a few hours later. Thats it! Bye bye burger. But by modifying software and sharing it, you are responsible for that software to be used by others in a way that Sony (the owner of the software) doesnt want for it to be used, over and over and over again, potentially causing financial damage. Thats the difference.
Whether you think Sony should legitimately allow for homewbrew, it doesnt matter. You think “sonys way of doing business is wrong”, it doesnt matter. What you think the “right and logical thing” for sony to do is.. yep, you guessed it, IT DOESNT MATTER. Maybe you should apply at a job for sonys gaming division and try to change things from the inside, instead of being some random dude on the internet giving Sony tips on how to run a successful business.
To those that specifically bought a ps3 because of linux, youre still quite conveniantly forgeting one thing… You had the OPTION to upgrade your FW or NOT. If Linux was that important to you, im assuming that playing games and going online might not have been such a high priority to you. My main motivation for buying a ps3 was for the GAMES because im pretty sure thats what a games console might excel at, everything else came second. Linux and homebrew? pfft, please.
AMEN!
If you don’t understand the analogies, then it’s probably because you didn’t read the blog post that it was relating to : http://kakaroto.homelinux.net/2011/07/programming-open-source-hacking-and-greedy-corporations/
After you read that, you’ll understand it better, if you don’t, then there’s not much I can do then.
Oh so we’re an idiot because we bought the machine because it was advertised to have linux just like it was advertised as a bluray player and gaming machine?
OMG! the stupidity of the posts in the comment section is unbelievable. You guys say we are whining for an advertised feature being removed, but yet if BD support was ever removed, you would be right along with us. Hypocritical as hell.
If all humans are this stupid, I fear for our race.
“And do you think Sony responded adequately to Anonymous’ attacks, and the PSN hack?
I don’t think they did. ”
He lost at at this point. Sony went above and beyond in notifying people that PSN was hacked. When Paypal and MasterCard were hacked I didn’t hear a lick about it until AnonymousCowards attacked PSN.
In further reading this guys comments, I am with everyone else who just sees a whole lot of whining and entitlement. You can mod your console all you want jackass, but don’t expect Sony to let you use it on their network they are trying to keep safe and fun for the majority of us who JUST WANT TO PLAY GAMES!
Don’t cut the sentence and assume you understand everything. Read the rest of the sentence, and you’ll know why I said that. When Sony will stop abusing the law and doing illegal things to whoever dares speak their name, then they would have responded correctly.
As your your comment about their network, jackass, again this has absolutely nothing to do with modding the console. I’ve said it myself thousands of times: you own the console, but you do not own the network, jailbreak your PS3 if you want, but you must play by the rules and never use PSN with a jailbroken PS3 because PSN is Sony’s property and they don’t want you there.
I think this is what annoys me the most from this guy
“In reality, if 90% of your users have pirated your software, then you probably lost less than 1% in sales.
That’s because most people who pirate would never have bought the software anyway, so it’s very wrong to believe that every download equates a lost sale. That’s just what project managers tell their boss to justify why their software doesn’t sell.
I don’t promote piracy, and I don’t want people to pirate games/software/etc. But I don’t believe that it’s as hurtful as they make it out to be.”
Even if less than 1% was lost then that means that potential buyers were going to pay for the game. This also means that 90+% of the 90% that didn’t play are playing the game illegaly. Lets put it like this 1 in 10 payed for the game, 9 in 10 didnt.
If people were never going to pay for the game in the first place then they shouldnt play the game at all, period. Here’s everyones favorite analogy. I’m gonna go to the car dealer and take the car that I want but not pay for it because, you know, I want it, but I would never pay for it. Me taking this car does not equate a lost sale to the dealer, right?
This guy is actually justifying piracy.
What you quotes was something that Wolfire Game Studio was saying (with data/research/math to prove it), not me.
I’m not promoting piracy, I don’t like piracy (I never pirated a single PS3 game, and I have bought over 150 PS3 games, 2 of which were used games, everything else were new, and I never even rented a single game). I agree that morally, piracy is bad and it’s not ethical, but I still disagree with how they want to make it look and the extreme measures they take against it.
Your car analogy is irrelevant also because one downloaded copy of software does not make the company lose anything, there is no physical media. If you steal a car, there is actual hardware being lost, you can’t copy the car a million times at zero cost. So yes, stealing a car is a lost sale, and yes, I agree that if you weren’t going to buy it, you shouldn’t download it and you shouldn’t enjoy it without paying for it, but that’s all besides the point I was trying to make.
Alaoui, youre analogies still dont apply to this situation, they may be similar, but not close enough to use with this specific situation.
You can never compare what you do with actual hardware (refrigerator, stoves, power tool etc) that you own, because your analogies are impossible for any company to ever execute even if they wanted to, which I see no reason for them to anyway.
Would black & decker sue me because I put an egg beater on the end of a power tool? Of course not. Even if they could, how would they ever know? They wouldnt. Now…
Would sony sue me if I sparkled pretty glitter on my ps3, added neon lights, spray painted it, or if I smashed it against the floor? Of course not. Even if they could, how would they ever know? They wouldnt. Now…
The difference between my black & decker tool and my ps3 is that aside from their respective functions, the ps3 requires THEIR SOFTWARE in order to operate. Software in which security has been implemented in order to PROTECT the millions of dollars invested in R&D, advertising, the millions needed to be recouped after losing money per console sold, and like any other business, in their pursuit to turn a profit. It is NOT open source, you know it, we all know it, were ok with it, you and others like you are not, so it seems more of a personal problem to me. Deal with it. How? Use the damn thing the way it was supposed to, and stop bitching at Sony for not allowing a CLOSED SYSTEM to be used for your own self gratification.
Every product has their unique functions and limitations of how they can be used.
As a gun owner, do you have the right to shoot people at random? Of course not, your gun has limitations as to when or how it can be used.
As a car owner, do you have the right to travel above the posted speed limit, just because your car can? Can you travel at its maximum speed on a public road just because youre so CURIOUS as to how fast it can go? Can you run over pedestrians or use your car in such a way thats out of accordance with the law?…
Well technically yes, but if you choose to do so, be prepared to face the consequences if you get caught.
Basically what im saying is that just because we own something, it doesnt always grant us the RIGHT to use it in any way we want.
These “greedy corporations” are the ones providing us with the technology that we all have become so dependent on for our entertainment needs. The ones that provide us the tech to run our businesses easier and more efficiently. The ones that gives us the tools so easily stay in contact with our loved ones. Although corporations have done plenty their share of wrong doing (some way worse than others), and capitalism is a whole different subject, I think that Sony wanting to protect their product/investment, doesnt put them in a demonized light to me.
In the end, its THEIR software that youre trying to modify. Food and recipes are consumables. We alter recipes to suite our different tastes. We eat the food. Thats it. The Cheesecake Factory isnt losing money because youre making your own cheesecakes. But as I said modifying Sonys software has the potential to have a catastrophic financial effect not only to them, but to the people who create the games, and that isnt fair just to pleasure your own selfish desires.
“Use the damn thing the way it was supposed to”
That is part of the problem. Older models were supposed to run Linux. Almost makes everything you said moot.
“As a gun owner, do you have the right to shoot people at random? Of course not, your gun has limitations as to when or how it can be used.
As a car owner, do you have the right to travel above the posted speed limit, just because your car can? Can you travel at its maximum speed on a public road just because youre so CURIOUS as to how fast it can go? Can you run over pedestrians or use your car in such a way thats out of accordance with the law?…
Well technically yes, but if you choose to do so, be prepared to face the consequences if you get caught.”
You are comparing physical harm and actual crimes to hacking a console. Can’t really say your analogies apply to the situation either.
“The difference between my black & decker tool and my ps3 is that aside from their respective functions, the ps3 requires THEIR SOFTWARE in order to operate. Software in which security has been implemented in order to PROTECT the millions of dollars invested in R&D, advertising, the millions needed to be recouped after losing money per console sold, and like any other business, in their pursuit to turn a profit. It is NOT open source, you know it, we all know it, were ok with it, you and others like you are not, so it seems more of a personal problem to me. Deal with it. How? Use the damn thing the way it was supposed to, and stop bitching at Sony for not allowing a CLOSED SYSTEM to be used for your own self gratification.”
If you bought the console with no intention to buy any games or software then the millions invested in R&D and advertising wasn’t targeted at you. They would have lost all investment in you as a individual. Does that make you wrong? If I bought the console to run my own software, well then I say that is my own prerogative. I had no intention to become one of Sony’s investments. It’s a gamble I’m sure they considered when marketing it as a multimedia device.
“In the end, its THEIR software that youre trying to modify. Food and recipes are consumables. We alter recipes to suite our different tastes. We eat the food. Thats it. The Cheesecake Factory isnt losing money because youre making your own cheesecakes. But as I said modifying Sonys software has the potential to have a catastrophic financial effect not only to them, but to the people who create the games, and that isnt fair just to pleasure your own selfish desires.”
Why can’t we modify our consoles to suite our different taste? Knowledge is also a consumable, for the brain (that’s deep). I don’t see the difference between altering a recipe and modifying code. People have it stuck in their heads that every person that hacks their console, does it for piracy. If you are making your own cheesecake instead of buying one from the Cheesecake Factory, they are in a way losing money, similar to piracy, because they lose the potential customer that decided to make his own or the person that wasn’t going to purchase one anyway. I don’t condone piracy either but your analogies were beyond flawed.
- “Older models were supposed to run Linux. Almost makes everything you said moot.”
Youre right, but as the owner of the “recipe”, they are NOT anymore. And as the owner of the “recipe”, they have every RIGHT to modify it any way they want, with or without your consent. If Sonys recipe doesnt suite youre “taste” anymore, then again, thats YOUR problem.
- “If you bought the console with no intention to buy any games or software then the millions invested in R&D and advertising wasn’t targeted at you. They would have lost all investment in you as a individual. Does that make you wrong? If I bought the console to run my own software, well then I say that is my own prerogative. I had no intention to become one of Sony’s investments. It’s a gamble I’m sure they considered when marketing it as a multimedia device”
R&D is the conception and implementation of new product ideas, which comes at a price. No r&d, no ps3, feel me?
And it doesnt matter whether you are interested in the the games or not. You did hear about the ps3, right? How? It doesnt matter how. Even if it was word of mouth, THAT person heard about it through an ad of some sort, and if he didnt, maybe it was his friend who saw the ad, or his friends frends, either way, it all leads back to sonys AD dollar.
- “I don’t see the difference between altering a recipe and modifying code. People have it stuck in their heads that every person that hacks their console, does it for piracy. If you are making your own cheesecake instead of buying one from the Cheesecake Factory, they are in a way losing money, similar to piracy, because they lose the potential customer that decided to make his own or the person that wasn’t going to purchase one anyway. I don’t condone piracy either but your analogies were beyond flawed.”
Altering a recipe can, IN NO WAY equate or result in the same type of catastrophic and disastrous financial way that “modifying” code can. To put the two in the same category is the most brainless, inane thing that can be done. My analogies are only flawed due to the context and way that you are interpreting them. You try to argue with me countless times, and time after time you misunderstand everything I say. Read and if necessary, re-read before you reply to me.
@Westsiide: You make good point and I thank you for staying polite (as opposed to some other guys in here).
I don’t believe there is a reason to argue for hours about this issue. The point of my blog post (and subsequently this interview) was to explain to you and others like you how we feel about the issue of hacking a console. You say my analogies don’t make sense and are absurd, and I thank you for that because that was exactly my point, and I said it in the blog post. Yes, it is completely absurd, but the analogies are very precise and true. If you don’t see them as being accurate, maybe it’s because you don’t (I assume) understand programming, but my point was to say that this is how we see it, and that for us those analogies are accurate. The absurdity of the analogies was to show how absurd the current system looks to us.
You say it’s impossible for the fridge to detect if you put bread in it, but it is actually possible, you just need to spend a few millions in R&D for a security system to detect that sort of thing, and that’s what Sony did, the PS3 is nothing more than a computer but with millions of dollars in R&D in order to secure it so people can’t run anything if the developer isn’t paying them royalties (bakery paying the fridge manufacturer to allow his product). But even if it was impossible, the analogy still holds, it’s just that in one case, it makes no sense to you because you understand how a fridge works (or should work) but you don’t comprehend (to the same level, or with the same eye as me) how a console system works. I mean no disrespect by that statement.
You keep talking about “their software” and how they have the right to do what they want with it. However, as I said before, they have already been called out on court that what they did was illegal because they advertised a feature then later removed it. You would probably feel very differently if they decided to release the PS4 and instantly brick (no games, no bd/dvd support) every ps3 console everywhere just so you can buy the ps4.. it would be illegal, and the principle holds even if you weren’t using Linux, they still basically ‘bricked’ part of the features that they advertised.
Also, one of my points was that, even if the software is theirs, the hardware is ours, and if I cannot use the hardware without the software, then that’s an issue. I own the hardware, so what if I wanted to put my own, 100% legal, custom firmware (Linux for example) and not use their proprietary software? well, I can’t, and that’s an issue that needs to be fixed because by holding all the rights to the software, they are basically preventing me from using my hardware. It’s like saying that whatever security company holds the software on your alarm system at home and they can remotely update the alarm system to lock you out of your house and you can’t do anything about it because they have total control over the software. I believe it had already been ruled that if a software is critical to the correct running of a hardware that you own, then you are entitled to access to the software, as if you owned it, like the hardware. Just think about it for a second.
As for your gun and car analogies, they are correct and they apply to the ps3 in the sense of “one’s freedom stops when someone else’s freedom starts”, and I said it a few times, you should be entitled to modify your console “within the bounds of the law and freedom of others”. So yes, you cannot use your PS3 to hack into PSN or to cheat in online gaming, etc.. in the same way you can’t speed on a public road.. but if you have your own immesenly huge private backyard, you can speed in it as much as you want, and noone will bother you. A very similar discussion about this was brought up in the comments section of my blog post, if you’re interested.
As for your repeated use of the expression “catastrophic financial effect”, I disagree and that’s why I talked a bit about my views on piracy. Piracy does not have that much of an impact and if you’d like I can discuss it further with you, but for now, I’ll just say that it doesn’t have that much of a catastrophic effect, and I believe that on the contrary, piracy actually helps the industry and puts more money in the pockets of those ‘greedy corporations’ (but that doesn’t justify doing it of course. I am still anti-piracy, I just don’t agree that it has a detrimental effect).
And for your information, if Sony knew you added neon lights to your PS3, they might sue you.. they don’t do it for piracy, they do it for control.. just look up the Aibo lawsuit that Sony did, you’ll understand why I’m saying this.
Either way, my purpose was to explain these issues and hopefully for some people to understand where we come from, how we see it and why we act this way. If you can put yourself in our shoes and understand us, then great, if not, then no worries, I simply hope you can understand and respect our views and motives.
Thanks.
Lol. Pretty much everybody here got told by KaKaRoTo.
Actually, im still waiting to be “told” by anyone.
I only “told” those who were completely besides the point. I hate it when people jump on the “hackers die!” and associate console modders with network security hackers (PSN hack) while they are completely unrelated.
@WestSiide has shown intellect and good arguments and I appreciate the discussion with him/her.
I said “pretty much everybody”. Notice, I actually tried to talk to @WestSiide because, like you said, he actually shows some intellect and discusses the matter.
@WestSiide
“Youre right, but as the owner of the “recipe”, they are NOT anymore. And as the owner of the “recipe”, they have every RIGHT to modify it any way they want, with or without your consent. If Sonys recipe doesnt suite youre “taste” anymore, then again, thats YOUR problem.”
Of course they can change the “recipe”. But they can’t take and alter what you have already purchased (consumed), especially if you wanted it like that. What you said is similar to what KaKaRoTo said with the burger and the ketchup, the analogy you tried to shoot down. Open your mind, Sony doesn’t own your damn console.
“R&D is the conception and implementation of new product ideas, which comes at a price. No r&d, no ps3, feel me?
And it doesnt matter whether you are interested in the the games or not. You did hear about the ps3, right? How? It doesnt matter how. Even if it was word of mouth, THAT person heard about it through an ad of some sort, and if he didnt, maybe it was his friend who saw the ad, or his friends frends, either way, it all leads back to sonys AD dollar.”
I’ll grant you that. Makes sense up until a certain extent. If you were buying their console at their loss and had no intention on buying any kind of media that would bring that loss to a profit then I say you still weren’t part of their main demographic.
“Altering a recipe can, IN NO WAY equate or result in the same type of catastrophic and disastrous financial way that “modifying” code can. To put the two in the same category is the most brainless, inane thing that can be done.”
You didn’t explain why they couldn’t be compared, you just expressed how stupid you thought it was that they were compared. Apparently, you couldn’t shoot down my analogy. Way to back up how you feel.
“My analogies are only flawed due to the context and way that you are interpreting them.”
Did you not do the same with KaKaRoTo?
“Read and if necessary, re-read before you reply to me.”
Good advice, because if their is one thing we have in common, it’s that we tend to argue with each other, but I believe you are the one that misunderstands what I say, not the other way around. You also tend to arrogantly try to prove your points and call everything else and the naysayers stupid. Open your mind bro, it’s ok.
Bro, we could do this all day long.
- “Of course they can change the “recipe”. But they can’t take and alter what you have already purchased (consumed), especially if you wanted it like that. What you said is similar to what KaKaRoTo said with the burger and the ketchup, the analogy you tried to shoot down. Open your mind, Sony doesn’t own your damn console.”
This is why recipes and code modification should not be used in analogies, or to prove any points.
A recipe can be changed, altered, modified, whatever, hundreds or even thousands of times. Each will grant you different results. There isnt a goal or a specific outcome when modding a recipe, except for it to taste good to you as an individual.
The GOAL and hopeful OUTCOME to modifying (using sony as example) ps3 code is to allow for homebrew and/or piracy, with full access to PSN. Thats it. One “recipe”, one goal.
We already agreed that sony can change their own code. Now, unlike a cheesecake, Sarah Lee of course cant change or modify the recipe or ingredients in the cheesecake that you already bought, just because they decided to use different ingredients after you bought it. How can they? It is an impossibility. Buuut…
On the other hand, Sony decided that their current “recipe” isnt working out for them, or they arent seeing the results they hoped for, or they decided people are using a feature in an attempt to abuse or exploit the console, or whatever reason they have for wanting to alter their “recipe”. The differrence is that through the power of technology, THEY CAN, but keep in mind, they are NOT making you do it.
Recipes and cheesecakes, burgers, etc arent technology. They are perishable consumables. There are probably hundreds of different ways for you to acquire a cheesecake. And a SINGLE or modified cheesecake recipe couldnt possibly be the cause for Sarah Lee to potentially lose millions upon millions of lost cheesecake revenue in the same way that ONE CORRECT “modified recipe” can cause millions upon millions of lost software revenue for Sony. I mean, like I said, cheesecakes you can get anywhere, but there are many “recipes” (games) that can ONLY be had through the ps3, that will no doubt be had for free (piracy).
- “My analogies are only flawed due to the context and way that you are interpreting them.”
—”Did you not do the same with KaKaRoTo?”
No. His analogies, like I said, can and never will be a possibility, ever. There will never be a Teflon pan that can detect what you put in it. There will never be a refrigerator that detects and denies you the ability to freeze your bread. etc. I “get” what hes saying, but his analogies have no real impact on me because of how incredibly improbable they are.
On the other hand, my analogies werent directly aimed at trying to convey the situation with sony, piracy, drm, or any other subject. I simply was trying to explain that just because something has the ability and potential to do more than what it was actually designed to be used as, doesnt mean that you should, and if you do, then be prepared to face the consequences and/or repercussions.
My car has the ability to travel at 150 mph’s at top speed. Just because it can, does it mean that I should or could?
- “You also tend to arrogantly try to prove your points and call everything else and the naysayers stupid. Open your mind bro, it’s ok.”
Do you really believe this is a question of me not “having an open mind”? Is your mind not “open”
enough for you to realize that ps3 is a CLOSED system? Yet the insistance to continually crack sony security to run unsigned code, homebrew, fuck up the online community is ok , right?… riiiight.
“A recipe can be changed, altered, modified, whatever, hundreds or even thousands of times. Each will grant you different results. There isnt a goal or a specific outcome when modding a recipe, except for it to taste good to you as an individual.
The GOAL and hopeful OUTCOME to modifying (using sony as example) ps3 code is to allow for homebrew and/or piracy, with full access to PSN. Thats it. One “recipe”, one goal.”
The GOAL and HOPEFUL OUTCOME to cracking and modifying the PS3 was to run HOMEBREW and LEARN more about the system. PIRACY is an ill side effect that sadly coexist with homebrew by way of hacking. If Sony were to create an indie program like KaKaRoTo suggested then there wouldn’t be a need to hack the console for anything but learning purposes.
“Recipes and cheesecakes, burgers, etc arent technology. They are perishable consumables. There are probably hundreds of different ways for you to acquire a cheesecake. And a SINGLE or modified cheesecake recipe couldnt possibly be the cause for Sarah Lee to potentially lose millions upon millions of lost cheesecake revenue in the same way that ONE CORRECT “modified recipe” can cause millions upon millions of lost software revenue for Sony. I mean, like I said, cheesecakes you can get anywhere, but there are many “recipes” (games) that can ONLY be had through the ps3, that will no doubt be had for free (piracy).”
Seriously think you should stop using the cheese cake analogy because:
“I mean, like I said, cheesecakes you can get anywhere,” Like GameStop “but there are many “recipes” (games) that can ONLY be had through the PS3,” Like Sarah Lee “that will no doubt be had for free (piracy).” Like making your own.
There isn’t much contrast in your analogy to prove your point.
“On the other hand, my analogies werent directly aimed at trying to convey the situation with sony, piracy, drm, or any other subject. I simply was trying to explain that just because something has the ability and potential to do more than what it was actually designed to be used as, doesnt mean that you should, and if you do, then be prepared to face the consequences and/or repercussions.”
That’s another part of the problem. Why should you face consequences for modifying your console. I can understand repercussions like voiding your warranty and no longer receiving certain services but should you be sued for figuring out how running Linux on your PS3?
“My car has the ability to travel at 150 mph’s at top speed. Just because it can, does it mean that I should or could?”
You definitely should, if you can handle it. Unleash the beast, just do it responsibly. Maybe you should find a local track, this way you don’t hurt anybody.
“Do you really believe this is a question of me not “having an open mind”? Is your mind not “open”
enough for you to realize that ps3 is a CLOSED system? Yet the insistance to continually crack sony security to run unsigned code, homebrew, fuck up the online community is ok , right?… riiiight.”
Did I not consider every single word you typed? I assure you I did, and even gave reasonable responses. TBH you type a lot to say a little. We’ve acknowledged that the PS3 is a closed system, that’s pretty much what this is about silly. (see my mind is open
) When past MFW/CFW were made, there was an effort to say behind Sony’s updates so that the scum of the hacking community (script kiddies) wouldn’t be able to get online. Of course there were other hackers that made work a rounds to make a name for themselves. Honestly, its Sony’s duty to block modded consoles from getting online and disturbing the peace.
I did type alot because I was trying to be as meticulous as I could in my post.
The last thing ill say about cheesecake is that making your own isnt the same as pirating. You cannot pirate cheesecake!
To try to put an end to this; I could care less what you or anyone personally does with their console. Like I said, put pretty stickers on it, run it over, whatever. But as you already said, hacking it in the name of “knowledge” or homebrew carries what you call an “ill side effect”, I call it a freaking epidemic.
Either sony is being stubborn and does not want anything to do with homebrew, there are potential problems that perhaps we dont know about that may occur from allowing homebrew, or maybe its a “feature” that such a small minority are asking for that may not even be worth the time and effort to properly implement. Who really knows?
If one day its properly impemented, well good for you and anyone that cares for it. But until then, im still against the current method in which some indivuduals are attempting to “force” the feature against sonys view, with its negative side effects and all.
Its merely an issue of weighing the pros vs the cons. Maybe im missing something. Share them with us.
@StarENIX: While I (obviously) agree with what you’re saying, I don’t like it when people get aggressive, it makes your points invalid. I commend @WestSiide for keeping his calm and staying polite, I suggest you do the same in future comments (not using terms like arrogant, silly, or blaming him for not understanding you).
Anyways, I agree with both of you, you have very good points @WestSiide, I disagree with a few however :
1 – the way you consider piracy to be an epidemic, disastrous and catastrophic effect, etc.. As I said in a previous comment, I believe it to be pure bullshit, I don’t think they are losing any money from that (I would agree though that if they weren’t pushing so hard for anti-piracy measures, then it might be hurting them a bit more).
2 – you say that you don’t agree with the analogies because they are improbable so you can’t relate to them.
First of all, the burger/cheesecake/etc.. analogies aren’t about the game/software being the burger itself, the software is the recipe itself, not the end product. I believe I made a note about it in my blog post, the recipe is the software, not the meal, so you have to think about it that way.
As for the fridge/teflon pan, etc.. yes, they are improbable, but I believe it’s simply because the technology was never made that way. If consoles were always open, then I’m sure you would also see it as impossible/improbable for someone to restrict what can be executed on a console. While I agree, it would be difficult to limit what ingredients a pan can receive, I believe that it is possible, it will simply never happen because the outrage would be gigantic and people wouldn’t buy that product, as there are alternatives.. for consoles, there are no open alternatives (an open console that could play any and all games for any console?) and people are too ignorant about these issues to actually be outraged at the extend of the DRM measures being used.
Quite honestly, I don’t know why anyone would ever buy a Sony product after the whole Sony BMG scandal.
@Youness Alaoui
I appreciate the time you took to give psls the interview. I always try to find the facts before formulating an opinion on something, especially something so controversial as this. Also, I want to clarify that I have nothing against hackers, ive said this before on other news articles that are of similar topic. Pirates on the other hand, I despise them, which ive made known as well. Unfortunately (not that it would make a difference to you) my views on homebrew on the ps3 remain the same.
Your passion for programming, hacking, and desire to want to know how things work is something that you will defend to no end. Understandable. But those whose passion is playing games and supporting the industry to ensure that their hobby continues to grow and thrive, will without a doubt be against something that might be a direct threat to something they greatly enjoy. Im sure you can understand that.
You believe all information should be available to anyone, everyone, at any time. I agree, but to a certain extent. For example, a step-by-step tutorial on how to hack your ps3 to allow homebrew. Honestly, and i MEAN really really honestly, from the percentage of all people that applied this hack, what percentage do you think did it for homebrew, and what percentage did it for the sake of piracy? I think we all have an idea of which percentage would be higher.
Now, you say piracy helps the industry, but I fail to see how. You can argue that someone who pirates a game isnt a lost sale because its a game that he/she wouldnt have bought anyway. True. But I think its also safe to assume that someone will pirate a game, even if its a game that he/she was looking forward to playing. Its difficult to say exactly what percentage of people are only pirating games they wouldnt have bought otherwise VS. people who pirate anything and everything they can, for the sake of free games. But to say it helps the industry, i dont know about that.
The way I see it, the situation were in now as far as drm and companies trying anything and everything to protect their products/software, is something that those with a “greater knowledge or understanding” of how things work, in their attempts to exploit weaknesses and gain profit from other peoples work, are the ones responsible. Instead of being mad at these “greedy corporations”, why not channel some of that anger amongst those in your “hacker community” that continue with these type of schemes. Do you not agree thats probably the root cause of all this that you are so against?
Last thing I want to say is that I may be a bit biased becuase I have a totally different perception of Sony from you. The Sony I know has make extrememly reliable products. I have a Sony pro logic reciever from 1996 still working and being used from time to time, no lie. THEE BEST gaming experiences ive ever had, starting with the PSone, which still works along with my original fat ps2. New disc format every generation so far. All the free content, features, updates and services we’ve all recieved for the ps3. And a company that is relentless and not being pushed around or intimidated by threats, for that sake of keeping the integrity to the system, the online experience, and of course their checkbooks, but that of course is expected. But seriously, can you blame’em?
“Not really, because, first of all, there aren’t really any open system”
Don’t KaKaRoTo think that the PC is a open system?
Or did he just forget about it right there due to all the talk about consoles?
“That isn’t true, I know for a fact that they removed it because IBM forced them.”
Can i please get a source to this fact? I know about the speculations about that Sony removed OtherOS, so that i.e IBM could sell their super computer hardware more, and honestly it could very well be a plausible situation. But i havnt seen any source to that this is fact, i have only seen it in speculation form. But if it is true, why does Sony get so much shit against them for this if IBM forced them?
“Also, whether they removed Linux in 3.21 or not, what difference would it have made? The only thing his hack allowed was to read and write to the memory of the PS3, and he dumped the hypervisor code. Even if they removed Linux, the hypervisor code was already dumped, so it would have made no difference, it was too late.”
I belive this was to stop further development of PS3 hacking. Fail0verflow used Linux when they hacked the PS3, they mentioned this at their presentation back in December. Naturally it wouldnt stop the consoles that were on firmware 3.15 or lower, but if OtherOS was needed for anyone to do PS3 hacking, then removing it would stop it. But now we know that it didnt do much since people managed to make a .pup file (PS3 firmware update) instead. But back when it was demonstrated that OtherOS could be used for hacking, then i dont think that we knew 100% for sure since PS3 hacking was in early development then.
@Anyone still reading
A bit off topic but in regards to pirating.
Last year around this time my ps3 stopped working (I 100% blame myself though). Tried the heat gun and thermal paste myself, no go. I wasnt using it much at the time so I let it sit there a few months not knowing if I was ever going to bother trying to get it fixed, or if I was going to buy a new one.
One day (months later) I decide I was going to try one more time. Did some online searching and found this website that claims to be able to fix your ps3, 360 or wii “while you wait” in about an hour. Of course I was skeptical, but the “hook” was that if they cannot fix it, you will not be charged a dime. Called them to verify, all sounded good.
So the shop was located in L.A. about 10 miles from where I live. It was a small shop, maybe a bit smaller than an average gamestop. It looked sloppy and pretty disorganized, but I figured whatever im not leaving there without it. I explain to the guy the problem I was having and they “supposedly started working on it.
Anyway to try to make a long story not too long, I ended up being there for almost 3 hours, and no they did not fix my ps3, and no they did not charge me anything. They did however try to buy my ps3 for $60 for the parts I guess, I said no. But heres the intersting thing….
These guys running the shop dont just specialize in fixing consoles, they are apparantly very popular in modding and pirating. I couldnt even keep count to how many went in and paid these guys $60 or $70 (cant really remember) to mod their 360′s. About $100 for the wii which came with like 100 games as well. A few went in about the ps3 hack, which if i remember correctly was around the time when it was through that usb dongle.
Their HUGE stacks of pirated games that were sold from $5 – $25 depending on how new or popular the title was. The ENOURMOUS amount of people constantly walking in/out with pirated games and moddifies consoles. I was in shock and awe and had regretted going there giving these guys my business. I was not very dissapointed when they could fix my console because that meant I didnt need to pay them.
Keep in mind, this is just through my short 3 hour experience and not what goes on day after day, after month, year after year, in just ONE shop.
I don’t hate Hackers (well most hackers) and I get why you want to do the things you do but it’s just that I don’t think we can trust everyone, information should be shared and people like Jullian Assenge have shown what can happen when certain information is kept hidden from the general public but there’s also people who will abuse the knowledge of some information.
People who if they know too much about the PS3 will only use it to attack other PSN Users and generally make life a lot harder for PS3 users. I know that really it’s your own product and honestly in the case that you made Youness I think it’s fair that people have control over what they do with their console in their own privacy given they don’t use it to annoy other games.
People like you aren’t part of the problem, unfortunely you happen to be in the group of people that end up being punished the most. Having your console bricked and possibly even worse for something other hackers were doing and THAT is wrong, it’s terriable and I think it’s a shame that it happens. This is one of the worst generations of gaming because there is so much potential yet so many people refuse to see it,
Ubisoft calls for a new generation of gaming yet before that can happen people like them need to see how far we have to go with the PS3, 360 and Wii before we can even begin to think about moving on. The problem with the games industry is well like the London Riots if you will.
It started off with people generally joining because they want change and want something new from their console but now it’s gotten out of hand and there’s a lot of people hacking for ill intent to get something for free and to ruin gaming for other people which is making the original people look the same. Greedy and ignorant.
Hold on. This guy’s either Canadian or Morrocan? He doesn’t have any constitutional rights regarding the software that comes with a computer system.
At least I don’t. And I’m Canadian!